Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

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The logistic chain is long and near snapping on both fronts of the war, we are about to enter a phase of the war on the continents of Africa and South America needing land borne transport. So what do you think the Alliance needs most?

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Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Pokermind on Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:48 pm

The logistic chain is long and near snapping on both fronts of the war, we are about to enter a phase of the war on the continents of Africa and South America needing land borne transport.  So what do you think the Alliance needs most?  Feel free to comment on your choice
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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Dilandu on Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:35 pm

Well, for my opinion:

1) Cheap steamships (possibly even paddle-wheeled, to reduce cost and simplify the works)

2) Heavy cargo trucks to made the overland mobility possible

3) Airships as a relialbe long-range passenger aerial transport (you definitely would NOT like the crashlanding in the Destroyermen's world seas!)
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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by trakwelder on Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:47 pm

while the indiamen may be slow they have a decent payload, and there are hundreds of them, as well as several Homes outfitted to be transports. they may be slower yet, but the cargo capacity is MASSIVE. relying on animal drawn transport once it gets to where it's going however is highly inefficient. even a model T pickup has more legs and cargo capacity than a paalka drawn cart

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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Ceejay on Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:32 am

The alliance has reliable internal combustion engines and access to rubber so trucks are a definite. Faster larger freight carrying ships are also necessary either "cargo" homes or some non-nuclear Wink liberty ships. Airships for passenger and freight transport is also an idea worth investigating - a source of helium would make this more practical. Heavy construction machinery rather than muscle power would also be of value. I'd also like to see some lemurian Cee Bees for the construction of forward bases, roads and airfields.
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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Admin on Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:03 pm

Well, The main problem is not what they want to do but the limited supply of coal, steel and so on.

To produce enough coal for ships you need a full sized mining industry and we needed 50 years to develop it in our world.

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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Dilandu on Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:39 pm

Well, the Republic already have coal industry, and so the Empire.
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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Ceejay on Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:47 am

. . . and the Alliance has a functional oil industry developed in under two years Rolling Eyes. As has already been pointed out resource development is a balancing act. Focus too much on it at the expense or war material production and our friends will be overwhelmed, too little and there won't be enough raw materials to produce the necessary weapons and they will be overwhelmed.

Up to date the tech edge is all that has kept the Alliance alive. The Griks and Doms have iron/steel production and both appear to have vast ship building capacity. Both will improve their technology as a result of contact with the Alliance and the assistance of Kurakawa. Even if it is not as advanced as that fielded by the Alliance as the saying goes quantity has a quality of its own, and it is still unknown what the capabilities of the others really is. The Grik have adapted to Allied tactics and there is no reason why the Doms won't do the same. In order to assure its survival the Alliance must increase its industrial and logistic capacity.

There is every expectation based on events to date that the war could drag on for a very long time. The Grik and Doms have demonstrated fanatical dedication to their respective regimes. The strike on Madagascar failed to knock the Grik out of the war demonstrating more flexibility that might have been assumed and the both enemies control vast territories which could take a very long time to adequately pacify.  

Perhaps the main focus of the alliance with the Republic could be as the arsenal of Lemrocracy as it appears to have some heavy industry capabilities. The Alliance introducing cheap easily produced internal combustion engines would enable the Republic to increase their production exponentially and potentially enable the allies to hold off their enemies while they develop resources and industry closer to home.
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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Dilandu on Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:02 am

The Grik have adapted to Allied tactics and there is no reason why the Doms won't do the same.

Well, the Dominion is no actual threat. They haven't Grik's advantages of fast breeding and exellent reverse-engineering capabilites, and they are internally unstable. Simply speaking - they couldn't recover and modernize as fast as Grik's could.
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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Admin on Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:55 pm

You're right. They are just humans and much easier to predict.


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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Ceejay on Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:05 am

Well, the Dominion is no actual threat. They haven't Grik's advantages of fast breeding and exellent reverse-engineering capabilites, and they are internally unstable. Simply speaking - they couldn't recover and modernize as fast as Grik's could.[/quote]

Well I wouldn't say no threat. I would image they breed just as fast as the Lemurians and have demonstrated a fanatical devotion to their cause. All that remains is for them to provide competent tactical leadership and they could be a major threat. They almost certainly would have overrun the Empire if it weren't for the intervention of the the Alliance. The Alliance's real advantages over the Doms are tactics, technology and Sea power. Tactics can be learnt, technology can be countered by numbers and sea power is of little use in continental warfare. As to the relative adaptability of the Grik it remains to be seen how they will progress without the direct influence of the Japanese. Certainly the more they advance the more reasonable they appear to be able to be as evidenced by the detente reached with Halik, so there is a slim possibility they may become less of a threat and even an ally.

In any case the war with the Doms is at the end of a long supply chain against an enemy with the resources of a continent behind them. To date the tactics used by both sides have been basic WW1 stuff, frontal assaults against strong prepared positions. If the the war enters a manoeuvre stage the Alliance currently lacks the logistical power to pursue, encircle and destroy an enemy over the distance which may be involved.
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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Pokermind on Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:44 am

@ Ceejay, In Straits of Hell, General Shinya said, //"We will chase Don Hernan, liberating the oppressed people of this land as we go, using his own supplies and weapons against him if we must." He looked right at Blas, "We will chase this evil murdering madman to the very gates of their capital city itself, where I intend to destroy him once and for all-and the greater evil, the 'seed' he sprang from." [SoH, Hb. p 409] //

I would guess that part of the army might be detached north to take El Paso del Fuego, while the bulk of the troops continue to chase north and east from Chimborazo on to the Capital at New Granada.



Map of part of north west New Granada Provence from Rising Tides



Map of El Paso de Fuego from Storm Surge
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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Dilandu on Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:00 pm

I would image they breed just as fast as the Lemurians

Yes, but for Lemurians and humans breeding is not the actually significant military advantage. To make new generation combat-capable the Dominion would need at least 10-15 years. Only Grik's could really field the new generation in only a few years.

This is one of the main Grik's advantages. They could replenish their losses of troops and workforce with the speed, unavaliable to humans and lemurians. Currently the Alliance was capable to replenish their troops mainly by adding the new members - the Empire, the Philippines, and, quite possibly, Australia. The Dom's have neither the Grik's breeding capabilites, nor Alliance lemurian reserves.

Simply speaking - if Grik's lost an army, they could breed new in just a few years.
If Alliance lost an army, they could just conscript new lemurians (they still have a lot of them, despite war losses - and their civilian population currently is completely safe).

If Dom's would suffer heavy losses, it would be really hard for them to replace. They already were forced to strip the local garrisons to mantain the main army. They simply have too few humans to use in prolonged warfare.


In any case the war with the Doms is at the end of a long supply chain against an enemy with the resources of a continent behind them.

Yes, this is the main problem of the Alliance. On the other hands, the Alliance held naval and aerial superiority. I.e. they could always go to the hit-and-run and burned earth tactic, to drain the Dom's resources.

I would guess that part of the army might be detached north to take El Paso del Fuego, while the bulk of the troops continue to chase north and east from Chimborazo on to the Capital at New Granada.

Personally, i think, they need to bring their trophy "Arata Amagi"-class battleships to deal with Dom's. This ships are pretty durable, and, armed with a better rifled artillery, would be capable of steaming through any Don's naval or coastal defenses. They could be used to attack - with the help of carrier aircrafts - any Dom's major port, suppressing the coastal defense and destroying infrastructure. They would perfectly solve the main weakness of Alliance's navy - the lack of battlewagons to do the job.
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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Ceejay on Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:12 am

[quote="Pokermind"]@ Ceejay, In Straits of Hell, General Shinya said, //"We will chase Don Hernan, liberating the oppressed people of this land as we go, using his own supplies and weapons against him if we must." He looked right at Blas, "We will chase this evil murdering madman to the very gates of their capital city itself, where I intend to destroy him once and for all-and the greater evil, the 'seed' he sprang from." [SoH, Hb. p 409] //

Kind of thing I would expect a Japanese from that era to say. Look how that worked out for them going over the Kokoda Track. Even with numerical superiority they struggled against an (initially anyway) second class Australian force. they did move forward until they ran out of food, medical supplies and ammunition and were reduced to eating their and our dead while retreating back to their landing point. The utterly ruthless Doms would have no problem in initiating a scorched earth retreat that would leave our friends in deep shit, unless they bring the logistical tail to support them and even then it will be no easy task

I would guess that part of the army might be detached north to take El Paso del Fuego, while the bulk of the troops continue to chase north and east from Chimborazo on to the Capital at New Granada.

You are probably about attempting the Paso el Fuego, but to what end. The British enjoyed control of the seas around Europe but it took a land battle many miles from the sea to stop Napoleon on both occasions. In WW2 the Allies enjoyed complete naval superiority over the Nazis for the entire war and naval and air superiority from probably '43 on  but it was land battles that brought victory, particularly those fought in the east where naval power usually referred to riverine gunboats. To win against the Doms and the Grik the next batch of shit which needs to be socked is the logistics to wage continental warfare out of reach of the sea.
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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Ceejay on Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:30 am

I don't disagree Dilandu, my point is that while not as great a threat as the Grik the Doms are not going to be a walk over.

If Dom's would suffer heavy losses, it would be really hard for them to replace. They already were forced to strip the local garrisons to mantain the main army. They simply have too few humans to use in prolonged warfare.

The same hold true for the Lemurians only they have to bring them a loooong way as well.

Yes, this is the main problem of the Alliance. On the other hands, the Alliance held naval and aerial superiority. I.e. they could always go to the hit-and-run and burned earth tactic, to drain the Dom's resources.

Once the combat moves inland naval superiority is not the trump card. with the Doms operating on internal lines it is reduced to guarding the supply convoys coming from the east and even then this could just be make work if the Dom navy has been suppressed and its bases overrun. Airpower is still very useful but only if keeps up with the troops. The Nancys are tied to the sea or at least sizable bodies of water and the Fleashooters have no bomb carrying capacity to speak of and they will still need strips to operate from. They can even only provide recce support if they can keep up with the advancing ground troops. As I mentioned elsewhere the Lemurians need Ceebees and a coep of engineers with mechanical earthmoving equipment to enable them to develop the infrastructure to support their operations.

Personally, i think, they need to bring their trophy "Arata Amagi"-class battleships to deal with Dom's. This ships are pretty durable, and, armed with a better rifled artillery, would be capable of steaming through any Don's naval or coastal defenses.

An excellent idea! My only concern would be their sea keeping ability going across the Pacific. Do you think their design could be improved in this regard without prohibitive modifications?
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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Dilandu on Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:25 am

The same hold true for the Lemurians only they have to bring them a loooong way as well.

Yes, but we have a lot of lemurians. At least a few millions around (probably 5-to-10 millions total). The Dom's couldn't have so many of them; they were around only for a few centuries.

Once the combat moves inland naval superiority is not the trump card.

Only if the combat moves really deep inland. And, frankly, as long as Dom's locked inland, they aren't much a threat to the Alliance. If they couldn't control the near-sea region, they coudn't rebuild their navy. And Alliance could form local garrisons from collaborating population to hold the territory against Dom's counterattacks.

As I mentioned elsewhere the Lemurians need Ceebees and a coep of engineers with mechanical earthmoving equipment to enable them to develop the infrastructure to support their operations.

True, but i'm afraid anything more progressive that steam power showel would need to wait a lot.

An excellent idea! My only concern would be their sea keeping ability going across the Pacific. Do you think their design could be improved in this regard without prohibitive modifications?

Hm, they should. We could cut the upper casemate to reduce upper weight (they have two gun decks, so we could manage without the upper), raise their freeboard at least with temporary gunwale, and even could strip their guns to be transported by other ships.

After all, "Monadnock" and "Monterey" crossed the Pacific in 1898. And they were only about 1/5 of "Arata Amagi" displacement.
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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Ceejay on Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:50 am

The problem is we don't know how many of them there are, there just isn't enough intell. Admittedly the Spanish component have only been there a couple of hundred years but who knows how long the Indians have been there and how many of them there are. To support the size army and navy seen to date there must be a few of them (us Catholics breed quick Very Happy).

Only if the combat moves really deep inland. And, frankly, as long as Dom's locked inland, they aren't much a threat to the Alliance. If they couldn't control the near-sea region, they coudn't rebuild their navy. And Alliance could form local garrisons from collaborating population to hold the territory against Dom's counterattacks.

We really don't know how far inland it will go, potentially thousands of kilometers - it is a continent. And while I don't disagree with the concept of a holding  strategy, if this is a war of liberation and that would be in keeping with the tone of the novels to date, then the Alliance will need to go in and root the Doms out. It will be very interesting to see how Taylor handles this.

I disagree about the potential for Ceebees. The mass production of internal combustion engines makes a lot possible - as the topic is headed "Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS" - I don't think they can afford not to. Even if it isn't needed against the Doms we still have to go to Africa.

Interesting info about the monitors crossing the Pacific.  If we are reducing the top hamper how feasible is it to reduce the length of the casement and fit a multi gun turret for and aft of the superstructure along with maybe 2 casement mounted 4 inchers  on each sides with 3 inch and multiple .30 or .50 cal mounts for anti air. Naval architecture is black magic to me so forgive me if this is wildly impractical. I'm thinking along the lines of the US pre dreadnaughts (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/USS_Texas2.jpg)
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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Pokermind on Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:35 am

Ceejay Taylor Anderson commented on his Technical Discussions blog.

On September 24, 2015 Taylor says:

Supply IS what it all comes down to in the end. One reason some readers get a little frustrated at times, I suppose, is that our heroes don’t make everything they are CAPABLE of making. The simple answer is supply. Not only of know-how, but materials, (and how to find them, extract them, transport them, make them into what they want, and then get them where they need them), labor, (and where to get it, when they’re fighting an existential war, transport it where they need it, train it, and feed it . . .)

Anyway, they have to prioritize. That’s why they never made Gatling guns, for example, but held out (and stocked up essential materials, steel-making methods, and ammunition manufacture capacity–and workforce) to make .30 cal BMGs. They could’ve had Gatlings quicker, but they would’ve required more of all those things–and then been useless for aircraft, and as Silva said, still required heavy carriages, etc.

Matthieu’s point that they’ll likely be restricted to operating close to seaborne supply for the foreseeable future is a good one(with a few exceptions) for this very reason. Their focus has been trying to control the sea and the air, without which they can accomplish nothing, and all their “supply” has been geared toward that, at the expense of other cool things they are capable of, but can’t yet “afford.”

The good thing, from their perspective, is that the Grik must do much the same. They don’t have improved roads, and use the sea (more reluctantly, true) and rivers for their own supply–and of course, they had a very limited understanding of commissary requirements because they’d always used the “attack and plunder” model.

The Dominion is different in that they do have decent coastal roads, and even a few that are some distance from the sea, but they still relied heavily on the sea, as there are other natural obstacles to direct-line supply. Destroying the Dom navy and merchant marine has not eliminated their supply completely, but has put a huge kink in it–and the Dominion remains a largely “coastal” power in any event. Glance back at maps of the Dominion and see what they call the deep interior of lands they “control.”

Anyway, always bear in mind that none of the belligerents on this world can operate on a deficit of supply availability, and for each “new” thing they deploy–again, with some exceptions–they must take resources from something else. There is also the time factor to consider. As things have “come to a head,” as it were, the time compression of the last several books has been relatively short. Not much TIME has passed in which new things can be developed and deployed.

Look at Map above the gray interior is labeled 'Desierto Oscura de Terribles Monstrous' that translates to 'Dark Desert of Terrible Monsters.'  Other than the Valley of Mexico north of the Pass of Fire the Dominion is essentially a coastal nation.  While they have good coastal roads heavy transport is by sea.   Thus Naval control of the Pass of fire and coast of Grenada Provence is necessary for Shinya's goal by, supplying his army, preventing the supply of the Army of God, and preventing the sea borne escape of Don Hernan and the Pope to the Valley of Mexico.  This is why Shinya should detach part of his army to take the Pass of fire and move the fleet along the North coast of New Grenada Provence.



1940s map of western South America the Dom Capital of New Grenada is in what this map lables as Venezualia.


Last edited by Pokermind on Sat Oct 03, 2015 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Dilandu on Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:54 pm

The problem is we don't know how many of them there are, there just isn't enough intell. Admittedly the Spanish component have only been there a couple of hundred years but who knows how long the Indians have been there and how many of them there are. To support the size army and navy seen to date there must be a few of them (us Catholics breed quick Very Happy).

Yeah, there is a problem. We could pretty good estimate the Empire population -

http://www.taylorandersonauthor.com/blog/discussions/technical-discussions/comment-page-42/#comment-189115

- but we definitely didn't knew much about Dom's, exept that they were around much longer. They could arrive basically in any time from early 1500 to the late 1600, and they have local population to control. So, the situation about them is not clear.

And while I don't disagree with the concept of a holding  strategy, if this is a war of liberation and that would be in keeping with the tone of the novels to date, then the Alliance will need to go in and root the Doms out. It will be very interesting to see how Taylor handles this.

The problem with the wars of liberation is that they are tended to be pretty long-time mess, and must be based on the ideological purposes. Sad

I disagree about the potential for Ceebees. The mass production of internal combustion engines makes a lot possible - as the topic is headed "Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS" - I don't think they can afford not to. Even if it isn't needed against the Doms we still have to go to Africa.

But their engines are pretty weak. Definitely not the type that you need for bulldosers and other heavy machinery. Steam tractors and locomotors, possibly, but not beyound that. This things are resource-costly and need a lot of work to build. And Alliance didn't have a few hundred thousands of Ulu to finalize the details to perfection using rasps.

Interesting info about the monitors crossing the Pacific.  If we are reducing the top hamper how feasible is it to reduce the length of the casement and fit a multi gun turret for and aft of the superstructure along with maybe 2 casement mounted 4 inchers  on each sides with 3 inch and multiple .30 or .50 cal mounts for anti air. Naval architecture is black magic to me so forgive me if this is wildly impractical. I'm thinking along the lines of the US pre dreadnaughts

Hm... for my opinion, they shpuld better cut the upper level of casemate, and instead place a few barbette mounts on the roof. Like this:

http://www.klaus-kramer.de/Schiff/Panzerschiffe/Panzerschiffe_1/SG000654.jpg

Only with lower freeboard.

They could put a few heavy rifles in barbettes to make sure that guns wouldn't be flooded in heavy weather, and put smaller guns into the battery. As i recall, the Republic is pretty capable of doing 8-inch breechloaders. I think, that they could something better, also - in iline of late-XIX Canet guns.

I'll try to draw my proposition.
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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Dilandu on Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:01 pm

Look at Map above the gray interior is labeled 'Desierto Oscura de Terribles Monstrous' that translates to 'Dark Desert of Terrible Monsters.' Other than the Valley of Mexico north of the Pass of Fire the Dominion is essentially a coastal nation. While they have good coastal roads heavy transport is by sea. Thus Naval control of the Pass of fire and coast of Grenada Provence is necessary for Shinya's goal by, supplying his army, preventing the supply of the Army of God, and preventing the sea borne escape of Don Hernan and the Pope to the Valley of Mexico. This is why Shinya should detach part of his army to take the Pass of fire and move the fleet along the North coast of New Grenada Provence.

So it seems that Dom's didn't really have the depth to defense. Thus the hit-and-run tactics -

1) Destroy the coastal forts and naval forces
2) Land a mobile army
3) Exterminate the Dom's presence nearby
4) Stay around long enough to train and arm the local militia, so they would be capable of stalling Dom's counterattack long enough for you to come and hepl.
5) Repeat in other place

- would be the better. After a few raids, the Dom's territory would be fragmented, and they would stuck in war with local population.
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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Ceejay on Sat Oct 03, 2015 3:01 am

1) Destroy the coastal forts and naval forces

Agree 100%

2) Land a mobile army
3) Exterminate the Dom's presence nearby
4) Stay around long enough to train and arm the local militia, so they would be capable of stalling Dom's counterattack long enough for you to come and hepl.

5) Repeat in other place


I disagree. There is no such thing in the destroyermen's universe as a mobile army. The alliance is primarily an infantry force with some cavalry and artillery drawn by draft animals. This means they are no more mobile than their opponents. Better to blockade and use air and some raiding where the focus is to eliminate coastal shipping and naval capability. Keep the Doms off the water and stifle their coast wise trade. Getting involved in forcing the pass of fire is a no starter at this stage, I'm not sure if it would be worth the naval losses to be suffered - Dilandu's suggestion of breechloading rifle armed ex grik ironclads could make a difference there - but to what end? Stopping the Doms? Destroying their navy effectively does that. Liberating the peons? Noble but not sure the Alliance can support a two front war and at the risk of laboring the point I don't think they can afford the supplies to equip a sufficiently large rebel army to beat the Doms in the field.  As to letting Don Hernan and the Pope escape I'm not convinced this is a bad thing. The Pope exerts no real control other than as a figure head and to date the Don has been a positive benefit to the Alliance as both a military and civil leader.

My suggestion would be for naval blockade in support of a special forces backed local insurgency to tie up the Doms, as much support as can be readily spared to strengthen California and focus on the Grik.

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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Pokermind on Sat Oct 03, 2015 3:40 am

At the end of Straits of Hell we have the following:
1) Shinya is chasing the Army of God.
2) Other than a few surviving warships the Dominion Navy is gone.
3) Second fleet is in bad shape.
4) The Empress of the New Britain Isles and the Queen of the Fil-Pin Lands are accompanying Shinya.
5) Fred and Kari are winging their way to attempt to contact the 1847 Americans.

Two carriers and unknown escorts should be coming from from Maa-Nila, it is possible the Konashi regiment from North Borno will join them.  Possibly more troops from the Fil-pin Lands.  Taylor has turned in the next book and we have no idea what if anything he has done to move the situation ahead.  Nor if the 1847 Americans will join the fight.

If I were High Admiral Jenks I'd use the two regiments to take the north and south sides of the pass of fire on land and then send the fleet through.  Then destroy Dominion seaborne traffic and support Shnya's siege of the Dom capital.
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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Ceejay on Sat Oct 03, 2015 4:31 am

And I wouldn't mind betting that's what will happen, it will be exciting and will provide a great battle.

But to what end, do they try to hold both sides of the pass? Even if both went in on only one side thats a lot of ground for two regiments to hang onto against who knows what opposition. And what does it achieve? Certainly you have split the Dom territory in two but if you want to finish them you still need to invest more than two regiments possibly three, worth of troops to do it. As mentioned there is no Dom fleet on the Pacific side of the pass, at this stage it doesn't matter whats on the other side - use your resources to keep it there.

In the real world Shinya would be eating is own people on his way back to the coast, He is going into the Andies with no supply train and scorched earth in front of him. And as if he doesn't have enough problems he is being accompanied by two inexperienced head strong heads of state who bring very little to the table in terms of military expertise other than a demonstrated desire to have their wishes acted upon.

I'm sure after many adventures that contact will be made with the other Americans. Will they come in on the side of the Alliance? Will the Alliance want them, remember when that lot went into the new world slavery was very popular, maybe it still is. In any case they are another unknown quantity
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Ceejay

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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Pokermind on Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:56 am

If Shinya keeps Don Hernan and his army on the run he will be unable to pursue a scorched earth policy.  Given allied air superiority and harassment he will continue running while Shinya keeps of the 'scare' as General Forest [Confederate General of cavalry, not a nice guy he founded the KKK, but one hell of a cavalry commander] would say.  Look again at the map:



Map of part of north west New Granada Provence from Rising Tides

From Chimborazo it goes north to Katopan, west then north Quito, then north to Manizales.

Now look at the 1940s map in post above Manizales is to the west of Bogota in Colombia but not on the coast of the Pacific  so then probably north to the norther coast of New Grenada Provence fronting the Caribbean sea then west to the capital some where in Venezuela.  At news of the defeated Army of God's approach the native will take to the jungle removing what food they can, thus it is likely that Don Hernan will have to resort to long pig (people) before Shinya as the native may well greet the liberators and feed them.

Given Don Hernan I think he will try to escape with the Pope to Mexico City by sea to Vera Cruz.  Where the army that failed to take California is.  Depending on shipping available it might be possible to transport the Army of God too.  That's why I hope either reinforced Second Fleet, or the navy of the 1847 Americans is there to prevent that escape.
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Pokermind

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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Dilandu on Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:06 am

Ceejay wrote:
I'm sure after many adventures that contact will be made with the other Americans. Will they come in on the side of the Alliance? Will the Alliance want them, remember when that lot went into the new world slavery was very popular, maybe it still is. In any case they are another unknown quantity

Actually, a pretty good question. We didn't actually knew, are the 1847-americans "the good guys"? Just because some of them helped Fred and Kari escape, didn't mean, that their nation are actually willing to help the Alliance - or that they are, actually, better than Dom's. It's not very probable (after all, it's really hard to be worse than Dom's) but still there is a lot of unknown about them.
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Dilandu

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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

Post by Pokermind on Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:04 pm

Ah Slavery, America at the time of the Mexican War was as Lincoln called it a house divided part Slave part Free. Thirteen years after the Mexican War the Civil War began in 1861, and by 1867 Slavery was gone. Let's assume 1% of the 1847 Americans were slaves of officers say.

Dilandu estimated the following population:

1850 - 10,000 (start point)
1875 - 20,000
1900 - 40,000
1925 - 80,000
1942 - about 100000
[1944 - (1+(19/25)) 80000 = 140,800 my calculation of the 1847 American population]

OK the Slave population say 50 black men provided women who become slaves too. Thus 1850 population 100 slaves, and they are not fighting the war so their population doubles every 20 years like the estimate for the Empire

Slaves of the 1847 Americans:

1850 - 100
1870 - 200
1890 - 400
1910 - 800
1930 - 1,600
1944 - 2,720

So the 1847 Americans free population 140,800 slave population 2,720 total is 143,540, slaves now being about 2% of the population.
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Re: Amatures think Tactics, but Professionals think LOGISTICS

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