Everything needs steel

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Everything needs steel

Post by Ceejay on Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:30 am

With the advent of the League the Alliance will likely need to accelerate it technological development. To do this a ready supply of steel will be needed. Is it feasible for the Alliance to commence steel production in time and in sufficient quantity to maintain its technological edge against the Grik, the transplanted Japanese and the Dominion? Perhaps more importantly can they achieve parity with the League?
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Re: Everything needs steel

Post by Pokermind on Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:32 pm

Steel was made and shipped from Madras in India to Zanzibar to build up Kurokawa's private arsenal, some remained awaiting shipment, but most facilities damaged during the Second Battle of Madras.  Taylor Anderson noted on his site, see link below, that all of Amagai's steel is gone, and Hidoiame is being salvaged in Straits of Hell.

My guess is the Alliance will repair the steel making facilities in Madras to supply the steel needed in Baalkpan and Maa-ni-la, perhaps with some help from the Empire of the New Britain Isles, they wishing to learn steel manufacture.  IIRC in Distant Thunders it was mentioned that small Bessemer converters and an Open Hearth furnace were built.  In Straits of Hell we learn .30 caliber machine guns are in production not to mention 4"/50 dual purpose naval rifles seen at Torpedo Day in Rising Tides indicating good quality steel for arms is in production in Baalkpan.  I would guess Madras will become the center of steel production as both coal and iron ore mines already exist there.

Straits of Hell also mentions that iron ships [perhaps steel] are under construction in New Britain Isles.  We will see the new Walker clones in the next book, one crewed by the still under repair Mahan's crew.  Allen Letts mentioned the next ships would be Gold Platters and four stack cruisers, I forget which book but the two clones were a building.  Straits of Hell also mentioned they are producing more planes and ships than they have trained pilots and crews to man.

You may wish to skim Taylor's Technical Discussions on his blog, http://www.taylorandersonauthor.com/blog/discussions/technical-discussions/.

Enjoy, mate.
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Re: Everything needs steel

Post by Dilandu on Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:11 pm

Well, they have Republic; and the Republic obviously have a large steel production.
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Re: Everything needs steel

Post by Admin on Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:14 pm

The main limit may be ore and coal. They need miners and it's a dangerous job. You need time to dig and it's manpower intensive. They still use picks and shovels.

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Re: Everything needs steel

Post by Dilandu on Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:32 pm

Well, the Republic probably have dynamite and powered showels already. They have industrial base for about three decades, remember.
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Re: Everything needs steel

Post by Pokermind on Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:04 pm

Ugh, Madras is a hell of a lot closer to Baalkpan and Maa-ni-la than either Saint Francis, the Empire of the New Britain Isles source of iron and coal, or Alexandria of the Republic of Real People.  Rebuilding plant and coke ovens there rather than long supply lines may be wise.  However if traffic back from delivering supplies from either place could be faster than building up a new plant, and now that India is not an active battleground it will get less traffic to and returning.

By the way South American along the western Andes is known for copper and silver mines, where there is silver there is usually lead.  Japan is a source of zink needed for casing brass for cartridges.  Why do I imagine the lizard birds on the coast build as many guano (Nitrate deposits necessary in explosives) as on our world.

I still see the Alliance reliance on Grik Indiamen for supply ships is an unforgivable personnel sink.
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Re: Everything needs steel

Post by Dilandu on Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:12 pm

Ugh, Madras is a hell of a lot closer to Baalkpan and Maa-ni-la than either Saint Francis,

Yes, but the level of Madrass industry is probably even less than Alliance currently have. And the Alliance didn't have a few hundred thousands of Ulu to work here. They need to ship the workforce, re-install the industry...

The problem is time. Rebuilding the Madrass would take years.
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Re: Everything needs steel

Post by Pokermind on Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:34 pm

Oops, my mistake, Firestorm mentions open hearth and electric Arc furnaces, but not the Bessemer converter for steel production in Baalkpan.
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Re: Everything needs steel

Post by Ceejay on Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:59 am

Ugh, Madras is a hell of a lot closer to Baalkpan and Maa-ni-la than either Saint Francis,

Yes, but the level of Madrass industry is probably even less than Alliance currently have. And the Alliance didn't have a few hundred thousands of Ulu to work here. They need to ship the workforce, re-install the industry...

The problem is time. Rebuilding the Madrass would take years.


What about north east coast of Oz as a base for constructing new heavy industry. Much closer than Madras, plenty of iron ore at hand, and massive supplies of top grade coking coal and bauxite for aluminium. This location has the added advantage of being well within the Alliances borders and central to both fronts. Being Aussie and a mining engineer Courtney would be familiar with this and besides I want to see more of "our" Lemurians in action Very Happy
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Re: Everything needs steel

Post by Pokermind on Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:25 pm

And "The Great Southern Isle" (Australia) has a large Lemurian population, too, Ceejay. So playing Allen Lets where in current Australia would you place the steel industry? Sorry my knowledge of Australia is limited. Notice one major area has not been mentioned, your neighbor New Zealand.

Poker

PS You might like this from Taylor Anderson on Tech:

"Ah! But Charlie . . . (Easter Egg Reveal at LAST) have you ever wondered why there has never been a rudder mentioned for Big Sal?

She didn’t HAVE one prior to her conversion to steam!

I’ve actually been itching for this question to come up for YEARS!!!
This is one of the reasons the Wing Clans had to work together so carefully, and the Body of Home Clan always produced the High Chiefs. There has been discussion of sliding keels (3) in the past, to facilitate turning, and holding a course, but leeway would still be a bitch. Still, since there are no jibs, the “Wings” must be adjusted to facilitate turns. Therefore, a mainmast slightly aft of center. Smile And yes, one of the reasons Big Sal’s Fas Clan had more prestige. They controlled the center wing. ..."

My answer:

"@ Taylor, “Easter Egg Reveal” says you, “curve ball,” says I! Hmm three hull piercing on the bottom of the hull where pressure is the greatest! Hmm putting on Rube Goldberg hat, a skeg at the rear acting like a fixed rudder, IE point of turn, while the three shifting keels near the bow would give the greatest turning moment. Hmm piviot them aft rather than rudder like fore with a bronze hinge, connect the three forward with bronze rods add pullies and bronze chains outside hull to eliminate a fore mentioned hull piercing. Yep Rube Goldberg would be proud! ..."

Not to mention all that stuff out side the hull very susceptible to damage and no drydocks to repair I forgot to add.

My latest try at Salissa before conversion moving the central mast back:



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Re: Everything needs steel

Post by Ceejay on Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:55 am

[quote="Pokermind"]And "The Great Southern Isle" (Australia) has a large Lemurian population, too, Ceejay.  So playing Allen Lets where in current Australia would you place the steel industry?  Sorry my knowledge of Australia is limited.  

I'd try and keep it as close as possible to Baalkpan. Since the north-west coast of OZ in this world is rich in iron ore and has large coal deposits it would seem likely that these will also be present under the land exposed by the lower sea levels off this coast. This now dry land would also be on top of the substantial natural gas reserves present off the coast in our world. The question is one of accessibility. Does the new coastline have suitable ports to facilitate collection and transportation of raw materials.

I'm not sure whether I would base the steel production facilities there. If these are in existence at Baalkpan and the Fil-pin lands probably quicker to move raw materials to the them. I would suggest that building some large steam powered bulk ore carriers - faster and more capacious than razeed Grik ships - could be a wise investment.

On another logistics related topic could be time to introduce the Lemurians to large scale agriculture. The Great Southern Isle probably has large temperate areas suitable for broad acre farming. Oz was a major bread basket during the Pacific war and could well be in this one.

If Oz does become a supplier of raw materials and food it may be time to consider developing rail transport as well. Thats what I love about this sort of discussion - pull on one thread and numerous others come loose
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Re: Everything needs steel

Post by Pokermind on Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:58 am

Posted you post on Taylor's blog got following:

Justin wrote: "The Allies get a place to relocate this Grik civvies, and we get to see Destroyermen Australia. I’m in."

Alexey Shiro (Dilandu here) wrote:

"//The Allies get a place to relocate this Grik civvies, and we get to see Destroyermen Australia. I’m in.//

There is some problem with Grik relocation. Food. The Grik’s are predators; they are energy-inefficient species, that generally forced to have a lot of territores simply to mantain the population. Simply speaking, from the same territory we could have much more plants protein, that livestock protein. So… it may be a real problem to feed a large Grik population in Australia.

P.S. Hm, really, how many Griks could live on some piece of land? They couldn’t mantain a tenth of thousands population simply by hunting; they need a lot of livestock – much more than humans, becuase Griks are carnivorous. And a lot of livestock means a lot of land – really a lot of land."

Justin responded, "//There is a problem with Grik relocation: food (snip) Simply speaking, from the same territory we could have much more plant protein, that livestock protein. So it may be a real problem to feed a large Grik population in Australia.//

Good thing Australia is mostly unpopulated. And even in OTL, it had dinosaurs (Austrosaurus, Minmi, Muttaburrasaurus, Leaellynasaura, etc).
Plenty of territory, plenty of food – so long as the local Cats share, I don’t see a problem."

Nearly finished with Salissa drawing:



If you are on hold to get published on Taylor's site he's at a convention for the next week here he discussed Salissa's anchor ect and the convention:

"Taylor says:

The “foot” I envisioned is like a big mushroom anchor. And yes, this is where we can have some fun. A lifting daggerboard keel? Or pivoting? Personally, I envisioned a pivoting keel like I have on my sloop:) A straightforward daggerboard would require more internal space allotment.
Wow. I’ve had some fun panels at the DragonCon and met a lot of great fans of the series. Lots of . . .interesting costumes. They say they broke the 100,000 mark this year. and it’s all so much more confined than the San Diego ComicCon. SEEMS like more people. Like I said, I’m having fun–but I’ll be glad to get home and back to writing."

Oh?  A pivoting keel for Salissa:



That box is at least eight feet wide and three eight foot decks high.

Poker
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Re: Everything needs steel

Post by Ceejay on Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:37 am

Gee anyone would think you guys are Poms, dropping more convicts on Oz Very Happy. Still there may be something to the suggestion. During the war Italian POWs were used as farm labourers and when the war was over large numbers of European immigrants were employed in the construction of major infrastructure programs. Maybe the Griks could be similarly employed on the Great Southern Island. Away from the conditioning of their culture there is every possibility that they will become more like Lawrence's people and integrate fully into the Alliance.

Food production must be a major issue. The war has disrupted every part of Lemurian culture - soldiers sailors and war factory workers don't produce food and there is no  population of unemployed females as there was on our earth to take up the slack. Putting willing POWs to work in intensive agriculture may be one solution.
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Re: Everything needs steel

Post by Dilandu on Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:54 pm

I'm afraid, Griks aren't the best agricultural...
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Re: Everything needs steel

Post by Pokermind on Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:57 pm

Ceejay, "Gee anyone would think you guys are Poms, dropping more convicts on Oz Very Happy. Still there may be something to the suggestion."

Aussie slang, Australia = Oz , Poms = (the establishment, government, ruling class, military, what?)

Oh link to Taylor Anderson's forums tech I've been quoting, http://www.taylorandersonauthor.com/blog/discussions/technical-discussions/comment-page-38/#comment-188073
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Re: Everything needs steel

Post by Ceejay on Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:47 pm

Close Pokermind! Pom, or pommie is Australian slang for an Englishman. The English settled Australia as a penal colony in 1788 (many Poms believe nothing much has changed).

The Griks will need to change. . . Lawrence's people engage in agriculture so we know it is possible for the race. if they loose the war it is unlikely that the Alliance will allow them to continue their many of the practices they currently employ so they will need to develop new ways to do many things - including feeding themselves
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Re: Everything needs steel

Post by Pokermind on Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:53 pm

Thanks for information on slang.  

You mentioned railroads, the only problem with railroads is they use a lot of steel.  Let’s look at a mile of track laid with fifty-five pound to the yard rail, ties two feet on center, and in fact the same rail specified for the first US transcontinental railroad in the 1863 Pacific Railroad Act.  For a mile of track the rails weigh 86.43 tons in 352 thirty foot rails. Splice bars weigh (352 @ 29 lbs/ pair ÷ 2,000 lbs/ ton =) 5.104 tons.  Nuts and bolts weigh (352 x 4 x 200lbs ÷ 259 ÷ 2,000 lbs =) 0.544 tons.  Spikes weigh (5,632 lbs ÷ 2,000 lbs / ton =) 2.816 tons.  Totaling the ironmongery we have 94.894 tons.

Do you want heavier rail?  Say 70 lbs per yard used on a first class railroad of 1880?  Rails for a mile of track weigh 110 tons. Splice bars weigh (352 x 64 lbs ÷ 2000 lbs/ton =) 11.26 tons.  Nuts and bolts weigh (352 x 6 x 200lbs ÷ 250 ÷ 2000 lb/ton =) 0.845 tons.  Spikes remain at 2.816 tons.  Totaling the ironmongery we have 124.92 tons.

I used two primary references to get these numbers to crunch. The Handlan-Buck Railroad, Miners, Machinists, and Lumber Mill Supplies,  a catalogue of 1918, Handlan-Buck Mfg. Co., Saint Louis, Missouri, pages 325-326, and Marshall  Kirkman, Building and Repairing Railways, World Railway Publishing Company, London, © 1907, pages 680-681.

Also rolling stock, locomotives, steel core for telegraph wire, yada, yada, yada and you can triple the above figures of steel per mile.  Remember every 100 miles you have a yard to change locomotives (steam) and sidings so just track is about 1.5 the above figures and everything else is 1.5 the above figures unless you use all steel cars rather than wood.  You use a lot of wood for sleepers, telegraph poles, bridges, water tanks, stations etc too.
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Re: Everything needs steel

Post by Ceejay on Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:42 pm

Yeah logistics are a pain! But what is the alternative? I'm not sure that a bronze age logistics base can support late 19th early 20th century industry.
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Re: Everything needs steel

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