out of topic: police in the USa

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out of topic: police in the USa

Post by Admin on Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:05 pm

Hello all

Today the topic is police in the USA. As I'm not american I discovered many strange things and I would like to check if it's true or not. This post is not designed to be pleasant but to be able to understand things :p

Feelings:
- according to what we can see on TV, the number of murders and crimes in the USA appears to be quite high (500% the one here, even per capita). Do you have the same feeling?

- US police seems to be VERY heavily armed: M16, armored cars, heavy weapons... It's hard for me to understand why.

- The global number of people killed by the police sounds to be really high in the USA (here: 13 last year for a 62m population)

- the word "riot' is used strangely. Here we use a much more detailes vocabulary depending on the case. For example:
       Students in the street celebrating too noisely is "tapage nocture" (minor misdeamour with , at most, a fine)
       People on strike in the street is "manifestation" (perfectly legal and most of the time with police protection)
       People wandering in the street without weapons but doing nothing specific "attroupement" (forbidden if the demonstration has not been planned)
       People in the street with weapons doing nothing specific "attroupement armé" (up to 3 years)
       Planning what we call a "mouvement insurectionnel" (barricades, fight with police, occupying official buildings...) is worser with (up to live).
Do you have more than one word to describe those events?

- Police training: I had a look at the US police training and I was surprised. 625 schools with different programs from 4 weeks to 6 months with an average of 18 weeks to become a policeman. It sounds like an incredibly short training time (source: http://discoverpolicing.org/what_does_take/?fa=training_academy_life ) with onle a few hours devoted to stress management. Here the mandatory training for a (basic) police officer is one year: 31 weeks for basic training, exams, 8 weeks observation internship, 9 weeks advanced training, 3 weeks speciality traning. Thre is a single curriculum for the whole country. Is the training that short in the USA? I'm highly surprised.

- Is it true that former military men often join the police in the USA? It's something a little bit strange for us as military personnel is trained to kill first and to use violence to complete a mission. Exactly the opposite of policemen. (source:   http://www.military.com/veteran-jobs/search/law-enforcement-jobs/military-transition-to-police-force.html?comp=7000023431425&rank=1  ). Is especially notice the sentences: ""The veterans we're trying to reach out to, they have the set of skills, the discipline and the training where they would easily transition from the military to civilian law enforcement,". Here it's quite uncommon as the training is completely different. Policemen are trained not to use their weapons if they can.

- Violence and weapons: the way most of the people see the problem here is: "as it's incredibly easy to get a weapon in the USA, criminals easily get some. As a consequence the police needs a lot of weapons and a lot of training. The place is indeed more dangerous. As many common folks have weapons it's also more complicated to find the good ones (here the rule is easy to get: if you have a weapon and you're not the police, then you're the bad guy. It prevents blue on blue). As many of them come from the military, they like to keep the same weapons, especially in rural areas (not in major cities). As their training is really short and they come from the army... Well you can imagine the consequence: powerfull weapons, lack of training... so many panic or are unable to cope with the pressure and... accidents...

Is that true or is there any major hole here?

sorry for my English, it's late!

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Re: out of topic: police in the USa

Post by Pokermind on Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:05 am

IMHO the "War on Drugs" turned the police into jackbooted thugs, rather than polite servants of the people.  The criminal element started an arms race, oddly the government supplied arms to criminals recently look up 'Fast and Furious.'  Political and social divisions in the country are tearing it apart many see a second Civil War as a possibility, God forbid.  No doubt the easy availability of arms contributes, as does the agitation of haters on both political extremes.  Just to show you the dialog this was Facebook today:



Charles Simpson (me) Hmm, just before the Roman republic dissolved into Civil Wars that eventually led to the Emperors politically motivated treason trials became common. Thus in a word no I don't agree, and where the hell would you find an unbiased jury for a fair trial? Hmm maybe some hermits living in caves for the last ten years somewhere?
Like · Reply · 1 [the 1 is 1 thumbs up] · 59 mins · Edited

[Two posts in capital letter saying he does not deserve a fair trial, calling the president of the USA a scum bag]

Charles Simpson Hmm, so violate his Constitutional Right to a fair trial with an impartial jury to save the Constitution? Ain't that the same treason you accuse him of?
Like · Reply · 54 mins

[Post calling me a stupid Obamaphile, and that his giving money to terrorists is treason, again in capital letters (note comments removed by poster, fear of Homeland Security I guess.]

Charles Simpson Actually I don't like him and voted for the other guy twice. I think a politically motivated trial would make the scum bag a marter[?sp] to the other side, just saying. I'll be glad to see the back of him. Perhaps the next election will bring in enough Republicans to Impeach his ASS!
Like · Reply · 49 mins

Dennis Frisby I definitely believe Obama should be charged with treason. Can he get a 'fair' trial? I think with as many supporters that he has, his attorney would make sure the jury was weighted heavily in favor of Obama. But, if they based their verdict strictly on the facts and not on Obama as a black, president, or any other 'favorable' circumstance, I do believe he would be found guilty just the same. In actuality, being the Command-in-Chief, I would think he should be tried in a military court...in which case I doubt he would stand a chance of getting a 'fair' trial.
Like · Reply · 46 mins

Charles Simpson Probably won't happen the real scum bags are never brought to justice, just us peons. Remember OJ Simpson's trial?
Like · Reply · 1 · 40 mins

This should give you a taste of political discourse and how polarized things are becoming.  Similar on the liberal side see Confederate Flag debate

It's enough to make one an alcholic!
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Re: out of topic: police in the USa

Post by Admin on Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:28 pm

Political and social divisions in the country are tearing it apart many see a second Civil War as a possibility,

Between whom and whom?

This should give you a taste of political discourse and how polarized things are becoming. Similar on the liberal side see Confederate Flag debate

And americans wonder why the whole world is making fun of them when they see that they waste time discussing about completely unimportant topics while importants events happen everyday. (I was not even trolling Sad Sad ). If you want, we can discuss one day about all


Here are some examples (and yes I came to the USA and yes I like the place):

---------------------------------------------

Why do you think that USA has a significant problem when it comes to other countries? Let’s begin with some examples

2004: In Irak a sergeant was trying to do his best to be polite and was shaking hands to say hello. But he had to wear gloves to do so (he was wearing plastic gloves allegedly to protect him from Hepatitis). Shaking hand has a significant meaning in many parts of the world. Consequence: you are basically telling Iraqis that they are dirty and not worth you hand.

2013: after the attack on Charlie Hebdo, in France, not a single high level member of the administration was in Paris (well one was in Paris but didn’t participate) . According to some officials the main reason was “risk”. At the same time more than 40 world leaders (with 200+ high level officials such as ambassadors, house members…) came and participated. Not a single one complained about the lack of security. Even the Palestinian prime minister and Israel’s prime minister came.
Consequence: you send the following message “well, we don’t trust you and your security, even if all countries do. We want to set it up our way even in your country”.

1960-2015: American ambassadors are well known not to be professionals. Many embassies go to people who helped the current president, even if their knowledge of international policy is limited (to say the least).
Consequence: you send your allies an inept ambassador. Would you like them to do the same?

2008, Afghanistan: the American army spends a huge amount of money to equip the new local army. Bright gear, the best weapons…. But they forgot that the basic afghan is undernourished and short sized. Most of them are incapable to carry the load… but at the same time they can run days and night in mountains with a light load while US troops can’t follow them there.
Consequence: you show your ally weapons that they can’t use (or can’t maintain)

2000-2015: The F35 program. You ask your allies to team to design the best plane ever (or so). You are ten years late, the plane is horrendously expensive; it has not been cleared for full use. You sucked all their money and their own local plane industry has been laminated by the lack of contracts
Consequence: you show that you can’t keep a program under control. Are they going to trust you next time? Some are already thinking about cancelling the whole F35 program (to purchase for F18, Typhons, Rafales…). Are they better? Maybe not but they know the price and they can trust supplies to be on time.

More example:
- in Viet Nam the main issue was just this sentence "why would a south vietnamese would fight for a corrupt and catholic governement that takes its land to redistribute it to local landlords?".
- In Irak: "why would an iraki trust you as you destroyed the single thing (the army) that was keeping things together?"
- In Chile "why would you trust a country that bribed people before helping a dictator".
and so on and so on.



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Re: out of topic: police in the USa

Post by Pokermind on Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:10 pm

No kidding. Did you know in recent polls used car salesmen were more trusted than politicians, congress ignores the electorate, and the extreme right and left are taking over the parties, compromise is near non existent. Check out this study that shows the will of the people is ignored by the politicians:

http://www.redflagnews.com/headlines-2015/study-congress-literally-doesnt-care-what-you-think

Video shows graphs from study by Professors Martin Gilens (Princeton University) and Benjamin I. Page (Northwestern University) looked at more than 20 years worth of data to answer a simple question: Does the government represent the people? Answer no the wealthy and other moneyed special interest groups. In the 1930 Comedian Will Rodges quipped "America has the best government money can buy, unfortunately we're poor folks," It appears he was right. Less than 50% of Americans bother to vote, most for the major parties with no interest in individual or policies it is a disgrace. I would say we have one of the most corrupt governments in the world. Many believe the last real president the country had was Jack Kennedy assassinated by the global bankers and multi national corporations. Ah well that's the view of an old cynical curmudgeon, and I used to think this was a figment of the tinfoil hat crowd's imagination.
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Re: out of topic: police in the USa

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 16, 2015 2:01 pm

The video is not working. As a statistician I can tell you that there are major problems inside:
- a law does exist or not, so it's binary
- how do you define the "% of chance" of becoming law"
- the perfect curve should look like stairs: no law if below than 50% support and law if above than 50% support
- but it won't work either as people want many stupid things. I can ask you "do you want a better education" people will say yes but they will also say yes to "do you want to lay less tax" and you can't have both at the same time...
- 30% for both... well it may mean that 70% of the population is stupid or just does not understand the question

You can't imagine how damaging for the US image to when people around the world listen to some candidates (mainly republicans this time) as they sound like undeducated bigots (well, they are so funny that their best quotes as in our "Saturday Night Live").

The second incredible thing for us is that the US election is related mainly to money. It means that
- money can buy votes (something that puzzles us as we think that people have opinions)
- candidates are not equal. Here they have a limited amount and there is a hige control on it. If they spend one more euro, they may be removed from power and a new election takes place without them being allowed to enter the race! (and they have to refund )



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Re: out of topic: police in the USa

Post by Pokermind on Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:17 am

Saw this on Facebook today that's the Obama's symbol behind the swastika, and his hope and change slogan:



Just to show how decisive politics is becoming here.
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Re: out of topic: police in the USa

Post by Admin on Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:53 am

The question is "how mainstream are they". Is is 30% or 0.0001% of the population?

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Re: out of topic: police in the USa

Post by Dilandu on Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:23 pm

2000-2015: The F35 program. You ask your allies to team to design the best plane ever (or so). You are ten years late, the plane is horrendously expensive; it has not been cleared for full use. You sucked all their money and their own local plane industry has been laminated by the lack of contracts

Hm, i must disagree here. Let's remember, that the F-35 is not the ONE aircraft; actually it is THREE aircriafts on the same base. The land-based fighter-bomber, the carrier-based fighter and marines STOVL craft.

Yes, F-35 seems to be pretty costly as one aircraft. But the fact is, that all program is MUCH cheaper than if they tried to design and produce three differetn aircrafts independently. All models of F-35 are pretty close in therms of maintenance, repair and technical support; it would save a lot of money, if they would replace all their F-15/16/18 park with F-35, despite the fact that single F-35 is much more expenciese that any of them.


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Re: out of topic: police in the USa

Post by Admin on Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:55 pm

Hm, i must disagree here. Let's remember, that the F-35 is not the ONE aircraft; actually it is THREE aircriafts on the same base. The land-based fighter-bomber, the carrier-based fighter and marines STOVL craft.

It's the basic problem: by trying to do the work of three aircrafs, it does not do well the work of any of them.

The second problem is the HUGE cost increase.
- The plane is 7 years late.
- Overcost is 68% per place and the global programm overcost is close to 100%
- None of the 131 delivered aircraft are operational
-None has been delivered to allies
- It carries less weapons than the F14, F15, F16, F18, A6
- Stealph leads to stupendous cost per hour

Yes, F-35 seems to be pretty costly as one aircraft. But the fact is, that all program is MUCH cheaper than if they tried to design and produce three differetn aircrafts independently. All models of F-35 are pretty close in therms of maintenance, repair and technical support;

In 2014, the GAO found that the F-35 fleet would have operating costs 79% higher than the aircraft it replaced.[150] The latest Selected Acquisition Report stated that the program cost has increased 43% from 2001 with Program Acquisition Unit Cost up 68% and Unit Recurring Flyaway up 41%.[11] The F-35A's cost per flying hour is $32.5k while the F-16C/D is $25.5k but each F-35A will only fly 250 hours a year to the F-16's 316 hours resulting in the same yearly operating cost.[11][151]


and

DOT&E Report on the F-35 program published in January 2015 determined that the plane has not, in fact, reached any of the nine reliability measures the program was supposed to achieve by this point in its development and that the Joint Program Office has been re-categorizing failure incidents to make the plane look more reliable than it actually is. Further, the complexity of maintaining the F-35 means that, currently, none of the Services are ready to keep it in working order and instead “rely heavily on contractor support and unacceptable workarounds.” DOT&E found that the program achieved 61 percent of planned flight hours and that the average rate of availability was as low as 28 percent for the F-35A and 33 percent for the F-35B. The program created a new “modeled achievable” flight hour projection “since low availability was preventing the full use of bed-down plan flight hours.” According to the Assistant Secretary of the Air Force for Financial Management, in FY2014, each non-test F-35 flew only 7.7 hours per month, which amounts to approximately one sortie every 5.5 days—for combat purposes, a sortie rate so low as to be crippling. Mean flight hours between removal (MFHBR) have increased, but are still only 59 percent to 65 percent of the required threshold. DOT&E found that mean corrective maintenance time for critical failures got worse for the F-35A and the F-35C over the last year. Structural cracking is also proving to be a recurring and enduring problem that is not yet resolved

You save moeny only if the plane is working! It's not.

The navy did not need a F35. They were happy with the EF18. The air force needed an upgraded F16, not an overweight F35 (overweight as it has been designed for carrier use + vertical lift).

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Re: out of topic: police in the USa

Post by Dilandu on Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:03 pm

- The plane is 7 years late.

Well, currently there is no other 5th generation fighter even close to mass production... So, what the difference? Neither Russia nor China currently have 5th generalion aircrafts in service.

Overcost is 68% per place and the global programm overcost is close to 100%

Yes, that a problem - but, if i'm not mistaken, it's common with large R&D projects.

- None of the 131 delivered aircraft are operational

The marines claimes IOC a few month ago. Seems like the situation is improving.



- It carries less weapons than the F14, F15, F16, F18, A6

Is that really a problem? I'm not sure that F-15 and F-18 usually fly a missions with maximum payload.


The navy did not need a F35. They were happy with the EF18. The air force needed an upgraded F16, not an overweight F35 (overweight as it has been designed for carrier use + vertical lift).


And for how long the F-18 and F-16 could be sufficient? The other air forces are working on their fifth-generaion fighters. In 2020th, there would be a lot of fifth generaion fighters outside the USAF and USN.

The problems is, that the F-35 have much more potential to upgrade, than F-16 or F-18. There is a limits of their stealth capabilites, fire control and sensor systems that couldn't be overwhelmed without literally building a completely different aircraft. The current technical situation is in favor of more stealth and more sensor capabilites. And it seems that the future situation would be the similar. The dogfight is more and more outdated; even currently it's more like ramming tactics of warships in late XIX century; still have supporters, but no major navy placed a lot on the ramming this time. So as the aerial warfare; more and more inclined toward the all-missile and all-drone duels with a good chunk of direct-energy weapon in long-distance run.
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Re: out of topic: police in the USa

Post by Admin on Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:41 pm

Well, currently there is no other 5th generation fighter even close to mass production... So, what the difference? Neither Russia nor China currently have 5th generalion aircrafts in service.

it's not the problem. The problem is that the company sold a planed supposed to be abailable 7 years before. It's lying to the customer. And when the customer is your ally, it's bad.

"Yes, that a problem - but, if i'm not mistaken, it's common with large R&D projects."

Only in the USA. The Eurofighter was 11% above and the Rafale 4.5% above. People expect overcosts but not such a huge amont and at the same time so many problems in the plane (the engine can't be used at full thrust!)

"The marines claimes IOC a few month ago. Seems like the situation is improving."

IOC... not yet: http://breakingdefense.com/documents/services-set-ioc-dates-for-f-35s-confidence-is-the-watchword/

"Is that really a problem? I'm not sure that F-15 and F-18 usually fly a missions with maximum payload."

It's just that they can... and when they don't their take a tank to increase range. The F35 can't.

And for how long the F-18 and F-16 could be sufficient? The other air forces are working on their fifth-generaion fighters. In 2020th, there would be a lot of fifth generaion fighters outside the USAF and USN.

They are working on. Americans just selected the wrong path: stealth. All other countries understood that it was not going to work, that the cost would be too high and so on. They thus develop a 5th generation fighter and NOT a 5th generation light bomber / attack plane.

The current technical situation is in favor of more stealth and more sensor capabilites. And it seems that the future situation would be the similar.

Not really. 10 years ago yes. Now it's fighter drone. You can't just maintain stealth AND carry enouh bombs AND not be too expensive AND have a single plane to do everything. The plane is too expensive and now does not work. That's expensive for a broken toy right at the moment (If I was Obama I would have shoot down all generals and the company management and I would have forbidden any general to join a private company after).

more and more inclined toward the all-missile and all-drone duels with a good chunk of direct-energy weapon in long-distance run.

Direct energy weapons? Like the laser which just can't work at sea? (fog, rain, dust... just prevent it from being used).

Right about drones. so what's the use for a F35 if you can use a low cost drone to do the job?

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Re: out of topic: police in the USa

Post by Dilandu on Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:53 pm

They are working on. Americans just selected the wrong path: stealth. All other countries understood that it was not going to work, that the cost would be too high and so on. They thus develop a 5th generation fighter and NOT a 5th generation light bomber / attack plane.

Er... What's wrong with stealth? Every fifth-gen fighter now is stealthy. Both russian and chinese 5-th gen fighters are designed as stealthy as possible. 

The idea of all-stealth aircraft was wrong, as F-117 demonstrated, but the F-35 isn't all-stealth. She is reasonably stealth (simply the technology of stealth improved by all this years so, that she is very stealthy).


Direct energy weapons? Like the laser which just can't work at sea? (fog, rain, dust... just prevent it from being used). 


Yes, lasers, neutral particle beams, ect. They are really good when you need to blind the enemy electrooptical and infrared systems, or shock the IR-seeker of enemy missiles. 

Their more direct destruction capabilites... well, they are improved greatly by the last few decades. And the compact military-grade laser is perfectly possible. Of course, this weapon wouldn't be a magical death ray, but it would be a capable supplemental weapon.


You can't just maintain stealth AND carry enouh bombs 

Well, in that case just carry BETTER bombs. Smile You would need much less bombs to do the job, if your bombs have greater accuracy. Make the bombs smarter, and you don't need to carry so many of them.


AND not be too expensive AND have a single plane to do everything.

Currently the situation seems different. The F-35 may be the worst 5th generation fighter jet... but there would be MORE F-35 than any other 5th generation jets at all. The quantity beats quality on the same tech level.
 

 (fog, rain, dust... just prevent it from being used). 

Er, the modern optic could work with that. Perfectly.
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Re: out of topic: police in the USa

Post by Admin on Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:12 pm


Er... What's wrong with stealth? Every fifth-gen fighter now is stealthy. Both russian and chinese 5-th gen fighters are designed as stealthy as possible.

No. Check again.

Yes, lasers, neutral particle beams, ect. They are really good when you need to blind the enemy electrooptical and infrared systems, or shock the IR-seeker of enemy missiles.

No they don't work when it's foggy, raining, damp, when you have coulds and so on. It's simply physic.

Well, in that case just carry BETTER bombs. Smile You would need much less bombs to do the job, if your bombs have greater accuracy. Make the bombs smarter, and you don't need to carry so many of them.

Yeah, the smart weapons don't work in Syria. You need MORE bombs. Not accurate ones.

Currently the situation seems different. The F-35 may be the worst 5th generation fighter jet... but there would be MORE F-35 than any other 5th generation jets at all. The quantity beats quality on the same tech level.

save that it's wrong. The F35 is so expensive that the number decreases all year long. Many countries already cancelled their purchases: too expensive!


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Re: out of topic: police in the USa

Post by Dilandu on Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:31 pm

Yeah, the smart weapons don't work in Syria. You need MORE bombs. Not accurate ones.

Er, and for what reason you need a fifth-generation jets in Syria at all? Smile

The "MORE bombs" strategy would simply not work against the opponent, that have more or less modern aerial defense. You need to get rid of aerial defense first; and this is impossible to do with old-fashioned dumb bombs.

Also, what would MORE bombs do in Syria? Tear the towns apart with both sides and civilians in them? How could carpet bombing solve the problems in therms of urban warfare? 



No. Check again.

Please. All reports about our russian PAK FA clearly indicated that this fighters would be stealth as much as possible. There is no other way; with modern anti-air and air-to-air missiles, non-stealth aircrafts simply didn't stand a chance. 

The problems is, that the air-to-air missiles is much cheaper than any fighters or bombers or ect. And if we could detect the aircraft on a distance of a few hundered kilometers, we could hit it. The stealth tech greatly reduced distance, on which the radar could detect the aircraft. It gave tremendous tactical advantages.


No they don't work when it's foggy, raining, damp, when you have coulds and so on. It's simply physic. 

There is no "simply physic". Yes, the fog and rain could reduce the capabilites of lasers. But the problem is, that with the megawatt-scale weapon you really need a dence cloud cover to reduce it capabilites significantly.


 The F35 is so expensive that the number decreases all year long. Many countries already cancelled their purchases: too expensive! 

Exactly what countries? And how reduced? Currently, there is more F-35 in the world than any other fifth-generation aircraft.

The USA planned to produce about 2000 F-35 of all models to themselves. Well, le'ts assume that they would build only a 1000 F-35. The Russia currently wanted to build only about... 24 PAK FA fighters. And China thinking about 150-200 fifth-generation fighters. No other country have anything even near.

So, in immediate future there would be about twice as many F-35 as all others fifgh-gen fighters. Together Smile
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Re: out of topic: police in the USa

Post by Dilandu on Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:34 pm

Ah, damn, it's really hard to give complex explanation on the non-native languige.  Neutral Seems i need to work on this matter...
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Re: out of topic: police in the USa

Post by Dilandu on Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:43 pm

Let's see:


The PAK FA russian fifth-gen fighter prototype. Obvious stealth. The radar signature reduced as much as possible; all hull surfaces are flat, all the airframe parts are sharp-edged. The air intacts are rectangle and very flat. Our engineers claimed that it have even smaller radar signature than B-2 stealth bomber; frankly, i doubt that, but she is obviously very stealthy.

Next - 



The chinese J-20 prototype. The same picture - flat surfaces, sharp angles to reduce signature.

And - 



The F-35.

All the fifth-generation jets are stealthy. There are no reason for them to be. No of them are as stealthy-oriented as old F-117 - but simply the technology advanced, and currently the same level of reduced radar signature could be achieved much simpler (let's not forget, that the F-117 was designed a lont time ago!)
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Re: out of topic: police in the USa

Post by Admin on Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:50 pm

It's not my language either :p

"Er, and for what reason you need a fifth-generation jets in Syria at all? Smile"

You don't but you need more planes to put more bombs on target. With a 5th generation you don't have enough planes Sad

Also, what would MORE bombs do in Syria? Tear the towns apart with both sides and civilians in them? How could carpet bombing solve the problems in therms of urban warfare?

more on EI is a good idea.

Please. All reports about our russian PAK FA clearly indicated that this fighters would be stealth as much as possible. There is no other way; with modern anti-air and air-to-air missiles, non-stealth aircrafts simply didn't stand a chance.

They are too easy to detect even with thos systems. Radars (and especially russian radars) are really good at it. The software changes and it works on dual radars (like a gigantic dopler detector).

There is no "simply physic". Yes, the fog and rain could reduce the capabilites of lasers. But the problem is, that with the megawatt-scale weapon you really need a dence cloud cover to reduce it capabilites significantly.

Something that happens 80% of the time in the North Atlantic for instance.

Exactly what countries? And how reduced? Currently, there is more F-35 in the world than any other fifth-generation aircraft.

Canada cancelled (but it's political and could change)
Italiy cancelled 40% of the purchase
Netherlands cancelled 65%
Australia cancelled 24%
Denmark cancelled (new competition takes place)
Turkey and Norway remain in the boat

The USA planned to produce about 2000 F-35 of all models to themselves. Well, le'ts assume that they would build only a 1000 F-35. The Russia currently wanted to build only about... 24 PAK FA fighters. And China thinking about 150-200 fifth-generation fighters. No other country have anything even near.

They PLAN (hihihi) and the plane does NOT work. If the plane was working fine, well, it would be a policital choice. The fact is that the plane does not fly.

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Re: out of topic: police in the USa

Post by Dilandu on Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:06 pm

You don't but you need more planes to put more bombs on target. With a 5th generation you don't have enough planes 

And without them, you would be defensless in case of conflict with someone more capable than Syria.


They are too easy to detect even with thos systems. Radars (and especially russian radars) are really good at it. The software changes and it works on dual radars (like a gigantic dopler detector).




Actually, no. The doppler methods didin't work simply because the return signal is below the detection capabilites. You may try to use dopplet method to filter the low-energy signatures, buth there are a awfull lot of them. And still, the detection range is much less than against conventional aircrafts. Simply - the emission return on many distance is too small to be detected.




 Something that happens 80% of the time in the North Atlantic for instance. 


Yes, that's why modern laser weapon research go generally outside the visible spectrum and toward the IR.


Italiy cancelled 40% of the purchase



And the reason was their poor econimical state, mostly.



They PLAN (hihihi) and the plane does NOT work. If the plane was working fine, well, it would be a policital choice. The fact is that the plane does not fly.




Well, there was a lot of planes that "didn't work" initially... Smile There was so much initial problems with F-4...
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Re: out of topic: police in the USa

Post by Rommel on Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:22 am

Why not Eurofighter Typhoon?

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Re: out of topic: police in the USa

Post by Admin on Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:02 am

Well the idea behinf the F35 was to share technology and knowledge. The Eurofighter was developped by countries with a plane industry that wanted a powerfull air fighter with ome secondary air to land capability (lile an advanced F15) while other states wanted an updated F16. The F35 appeared to be the best choice and the F16 was a huge success.

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Re: out of topic: police in the USa

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